tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post2549418368889521077..comments2023-11-28T05:28:18.563-05:00Comments on All Things Ken: In Defense of Slumdog MillionaireKenneth R. Morefieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02492954693818444648noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-16892033167806286932009-02-19T12:55:00.000-05:002009-02-19T12:55:00.000-05:00Might? Jamal's and Salim's relationship is the act...Might? Jamal's and Salim's relationship is the actual core of the film, with the pursuit of the female as the Maguffin that moves it forward. I think Fiedler would find it fit nicely in the long line of American mythic tales built around male-male "friendships": Huck-Jim, Natty Bumpo-Chingachook, Gatsy and what's his name, The Sun Also Rises Guys, etc. etc. <BR/><BR/>Also, Salim seems more concerned with the way Latika comes between him and Jamal than anything else. (Even as kids, he doesn't want to let her come in out of the rain and sleep with them.)Kenneth R. Morefieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492954693818444648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-73128529833505229822009-02-18T23:32:00.000-05:002009-02-18T23:32:00.000-05:00"We'll make the guy who blinds all the orphans Pap..."We'll make the guy who blinds all the orphans Pap instead of Fagin and even throw in some homoerotic undertones for the Leslie Fiedler's in the crowd."<BR/>Come back to the slum again, Jamal honey? If his brother had just been his "very good friend," then you might have had something there. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-80230812862336643562009-02-17T22:50:00.000-05:002009-02-17T22:50:00.000-05:00BTW, any more comments about Slumdog as Dickensian...<I>BTW, any more comments about Slumdog as Dickensian?</I><BR/><BR/>Nothing developed. I guess if I were writing a paper, I'd pick <I>Hard Times</I> as a parallel piece, with the Industrial Revolution standing in for the broader social upheaval making muck of people's lives, Stephen Blackpool as the the innocent savant, and a bevvy of Victorian coincidences that imply either a benevolent design or some liberal Christian wish-fulfillment.<BR/><BR/>Seriously, though, I was thinking about this tonight and the author that kept rolling around in my head was Twain. Slightly less sentimental than Dickens. When I first saw SM, I wanted to compare to to <I>Forrest Gump</I> as a sort of picaresque romp through broader cultural snapshot by an innocent naif. But maybe it's better to think of it as closer to <I>Huck Finn</I>, both in the sense that Jamal, like Huck has some more agency that affects (if not determines) his outcome. Also, in Twain the cultural criticism is a bit more pointed--neither simply a backdrop (like in Hugo) nor the central point (like in Hard Times). Heck, if you buy into the notion that Twain was primarily a local color writer who pulled a national narrative out of his hat, you might even have a bit of that cross-cultural tension that complicates <I>SM</I> for the Biblical Studies major in you, no? I mean HF is not Stowe writing about the South (i.e. the outsider using the foreign as a synonym for bad), but neither is Twain writing about the south the same thing as O'Connor or Faulkner. <BR/><BR/>Actually, the more I toy with this analogy--Slumdog as 21st Century Mumbai Huck Finn--the more I like it. We'll make the guy who blinds all the orphans Pap instead of Fagin and even throw in some homoerotic undertones for the Leslie Fiedler's in the crowd.Kenneth R. Morefieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492954693818444648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-69021443208234631942009-02-17T22:19:00.000-05:002009-02-17T22:19:00.000-05:00Okay, I can see more clearly where you are coming ...Okay, I can see more clearly where you are coming from here. I am being thick about this for some reason. Biblical Studies is a discipline that will ruin you for everything else. It takes me so long to negotiate films that have to do with other social systems (and even worse: films by people in one social system about an entirely different culture), because all my research models are born in social-science. This can suck the joy out of a lot of film-watching.<BR/><BR/>Oddly enough, Wendy and Lucy makes a lot of the same points that Slumdog makes. It concludes with a sentimentality opposite to Slumdog. Sicinski criticized Wendy and Lucy for being "poverty-kitsch" just like many have slated Slumdog as "poverty-porn." There is a rich vein in there to mine somewhere. <BR/><BR/><BR/>BTW, any more comments about Slumdog as Dickensian? I am intrigued by your brief literary history on sentimentality and think you are on to something significant there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-53532674596655315562009-02-17T20:25:00.000-05:002009-02-17T20:25:00.000-05:00I am not tracking here.Sorry, I just meant that th...<I>I am not tracking here.</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, I just meant that the concerns expressed in the passage I quoted struck me as valuing (or not) the film more as a representative of something happening in film in general rather than on whether or not it was a particularly good (or poor) film in that trend. And I meant "don't interest me much" as means of saying, "I can't' really contribute much to that dialogue" not as a means of denigrating it.<BR/><BR/><I>Regardless, are there not significantly better films that make your point: "This, too, is life."?</I><BR/><BR/>Better? Perhaps. Significantly better? That's relative. I did say in my post that I had gone up from my initial "begrudging" thumbs up to a higher estimation but still did not think it was "the best" film. It did not make my 2008 Top Ten List (http://tinyurl.com/bjme64)<BR/><BR/>Then again, here is a link to a list of every film I saw in 2008--http://tinyurl.com/chakwh<BR/><BR/>What are the significantly better films on that list that make the same point as SM?<BR/><BR/>In Bruges?<BR/>Before the Devil Knows Your Dead?<BR/>4 Months, 3 Weeks, 2 Days?<BR/>Michael Clayton?<BR/>The Assassination of Jessee James?<BR/>Starting Out in the Evening?<BR/>Wendy and Lucy?<BR/>Superbad?<BR/>Eastern Promises?<BR/>Three Monkeys?<BR/>Vinyan?<BR/>Two Legged Horse?<BR/>Taxi to the Dark Side?<BR/>The Visitor?<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I'm cherry picking from the 2007/08 films off that list, but not that much. There aren't too many hopeful films, either thematically or tonally.<BR/><BR/>Hey, there's always The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants 2<BR/><BR/>Certainly there are a few non-2007/08 films that are closer to that message that are better than SM--Les Miserables, Honeydripper, maybe Redbeard, maybe The Best Years of Our Lives...but what's the criteria we are applying? A good film? One of the best films of the year? One of the best films of the last decade? Century? Of how many films I saw last year couldn't I say, "There are better films that make the same point?"<BR/><BR/>Granted, I don't watch as many movies as, professional film critics, so let me toss the question back to you...what significantly better films that share this tone or message have I missed?Kenneth R. Morefieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492954693818444648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-11778053053884289392009-02-17T19:34:00.000-05:002009-02-17T19:34:00.000-05:00"All I can say is that this sort of analysis of th..."All I can say is that this sort of analysis of the film doesn't interest me very much and the use of it as the foundation of an evaluation for the film strikes me as...abstract."<BR/><BR/>I am not tracking here. How is it any less abstract than "This, too, is life." You imported those thoughts on Victorian lit into Slumdog response, which was a spot on critical judgement. (As is your reference to No Counter... which is like The Matrix of Coen Bros. films in terms of "Duh..." philosophy.) That entire paragraph is very Bordwellian in tone and intent. <BR/><BR/>FWIW, Bordwell's comments led to positive criticism of the film. That landed squarely where yours does.<BR/><BR/>And with PTC, I thought the providential reference was Islamic in scope. I honestly have as hard a time understanding the Islamic take on determinism as I do with solving the Christian version of the problem of evil. I think a lot of negative responses to the film either pick up on some of these crossed wires in the film, or just can't handle the film's obvious disinterest in "providence" as much more than a narrative device.<BR/><BR/>Regardless, are there not significantly better films that make your point: "This, too, is life."?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-15050510137988900412009-02-17T19:01:00.000-05:002009-02-17T19:01:00.000-05:00Funny, but I never took "it is written" to be a re...Funny, but I never took "it is written" to be a reference to the movie's authors. Thanks to <I>Lawrence of Arabia</I>, I have always associated the phrase with a certain Muslim view of God's will for human beings, analogous to Fate or Providence or Destiny -- and the main character in this film is Muslim himself, so it all fits.Peter T Chattawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395937367596387523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-81905271856979380612009-02-17T16:51:00.000-05:002009-02-17T16:51:00.000-05:00Are these the only three things that I, as someone...<I><BR/>Are these the only three things that I, as someone who doesn't like Slumdog that much, must be thinking about people who do?</I><BR/><BR/>Short answer, "no."<BR/>Please, see, for example:<BR/><BR/><B>"In talking about the critical response surrounding a film, one inevitably generalizes, stereotypes, and is selective with, others' readings of the film"</B><BR/><BR/>The reasons people my not like a film are varied, and no defense will cover all of them, even if, unlike this one, it purports to have as its thesis that one <I>should</I> like the film.<BR/><BR/>I don't seriously think that my post is going to change people's minds who dislike the film. I hope it will provide some support for those who do but feel at a loss as to how to articulate many of their reasons, especially in the face of a critical marketplace that often requires of them to justify an affinity within the framework of a debate that is not their own.<BR/><BR/><I>I am still more puzzled by Bordwell's comments about how Slumdog embodies and emerging "international style" and whether or not this is a good thing. And how does the film's representation of the poor in India tie into how this "international style" works in Western (a politically correct way of saying "American" audiences.</I><BR/><BR/>Shrugs.<BR/><BR/>Look, Bordwell has forgotten more about film than I will ever know. All I can say is that this sort of analysis of the film doesn't interest me very much and the use of it as the foundation of an evaluation for the film strikes me as...abstract. <BR/><BR/>It's somewhat analogous to my friends who pick a political candidate based on the fact that some Supreme Court judge <I>may</I> retire, and the candidate <I>may</I> appoint another judge, who <I>may</I> decide some case the way they want it done. That is to say, I follow the argument, but it's just not something that occupies my thoughts very much while I'm watching the film or even when I'm thinking about it afterward and deciding whether or not I like it. <BR/><BR/>I'll leave to others to write the history of film and the place of the development of an international style in it. I'm just trying to articulate what it was I thought effective and affecting about this particular film.Kenneth R. Morefieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492954693818444648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-50144368818335685572009-02-17T13:48:00.000-05:002009-02-17T13:48:00.000-05:00Thanks, Scott. I very much appreciate the feedback...Thanks, Scott. I very much appreciate the feedback.Kenneth R. Morefieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492954693818444648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-14216427835613951102009-02-17T12:25:00.000-05:002009-02-17T12:25:00.000-05:00This perspective on suffering still isn't my probl...This perspective on suffering still isn't my problem with the film. I am still more puzzled by Bordwell's comments about how Slumdog embodies and emerging "international style" and whether or not this is a good thing. And how does the film's representation of the poor in India tie into how this "international style" works in Western (a politically correct way of saying "American" audiences.<BR/><BR/>Otherwise I am intriguied by these distinctions: "And either they are all simpering idiots, none of them is smarter than you (or even smart enough to think something you haven't thought of first), they are all deliberating lying to try to pull one over on you, or they are capable of appreciating and enjoying something that you don't. Why is the latter such an offense to so many people's sensibilities?"<BR/><BR/>None of these describe what I think when I don't like a film that everyone else seems to. "The Wrestler" is a good example of this. I attack Aronofsky in my review of that because I think he needs to be taken to task as an auteur. Can I understand why people are so affected by the film? Absolutely. But I can hold this fact in tension with my beef with Aronofsky. I hate it when criticism tries attempts to invalidate someone else's experience of the film rather than opening conversation about a film in such a way that these experiences can be assessed after the fact by embedding them in something other than the immediacy of the theater experience.<BR/><BR/>Are these the only three things that I, as someone who doesn't like Slumdog that much, must be thinking about people who do?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15191330.post-36969321783882093592009-02-17T06:10:00.000-05:002009-02-17T06:10:00.000-05:00Amazing post Ken. Thank you especially for making ...Amazing post Ken. Thank you especially for making the distinction between overcoming suffering and escaping suffering. That had been trouble the back of my mind since seeing the movie and this helped me get it straightened.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15838448254545710461noreply@blogger.com